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	Comments on: Meet Spinalis, the Forgotten Muscle in Saddle Fitting	</title>
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	<link>https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/</link>
	<description>Body Talk for Thinking Owners</description>
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		<title>
		By: Nicole Pratt		</title>
		<link>https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-95055</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nicole Pratt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Jul 2023 12:58:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehorsesback.com/?p=3366#comment-95055</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I have recently got an OTTB for light trail / paddock rides. I had my saddle fitter out and we noticed his high wither, but he&#039;s also got big shoulders. We decided on a changeable gullet and flocking for him as she has to accommodate the shoulders being wide and the wither high. She also pointed out the atrophy was definitely a previous saddle fit issue, not taken his shoulders into account and therefore causing the atrophy. I am working in hand and hopefully we can rebuild his whole topline because the shoulders have most certainly affected his spinal muscles. Thanks for the great information, having a great saddle fitter is a necessity in my opinion, they&#039;re worth their weight in gold.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have recently got an OTTB for light trail / paddock rides. I had my saddle fitter out and we noticed his high wither, but he&#8217;s also got big shoulders. We decided on a changeable gullet and flocking for him as she has to accommodate the shoulders being wide and the wither high. She also pointed out the atrophy was definitely a previous saddle fit issue, not taken his shoulders into account and therefore causing the atrophy. I am working in hand and hopefully we can rebuild his whole topline because the shoulders have most certainly affected his spinal muscles. Thanks for the great information, having a great saddle fitter is a necessity in my opinion, they&#8217;re worth their weight in gold.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jane @ THB		</title>
		<link>https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-84732</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jane @ THB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jun 2021 06:24:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehorsesback.com/?p=3366#comment-84732</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-84702&quot;&gt;Liz Ridenour&lt;/a&gt;.

It&#039;s obviously hard to say without seeing the horse, but... The best option would be to do some training, in hand, to help the horse open up through the thoracic sling, lift the spine up and lengthen his neck. Horses such as this are usually hollow or flat through the back, with the &#039;upside down&#039; neck appearance. They are dropped through the sternum.
I would favour an osteopathic approach or a veterinary chiro who does acupuncture - massage alone will help, but not with the deeper spinal correction at the cervicothoracic junction.
Saddle fit obviously  needs improving, although this horse will change shape a lot with *correct work... ALso, check for underrun heels in the fores, as these add to the poor posture and hollowing behind the scapulae.
Good luck! This is a lucky horse!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-84702">Liz Ridenour</a>.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s obviously hard to say without seeing the horse, but&#8230; The best option would be to do some training, in hand, to help the horse open up through the thoracic sling, lift the spine up and lengthen his neck. Horses such as this are usually hollow or flat through the back, with the &#8216;upside down&#8217; neck appearance. They are dropped through the sternum.<br />
I would favour an osteopathic approach or a veterinary chiro who does acupuncture &#8211; massage alone will help, but not with the deeper spinal correction at the cervicothoracic junction.<br />
Saddle fit obviously  needs improving, although this horse will change shape a lot with *correct work&#8230; ALso, check for underrun heels in the fores, as these add to the poor posture and hollowing behind the scapulae.<br />
Good luck! This is a lucky horse!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Liz Ridenour		</title>
		<link>https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-84702</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Liz Ridenour]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2021 01:15:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehorsesback.com/?p=3366#comment-84702</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hi there! I know I’m a bit late to this discussion, but there is a horse that recently arrived at my barn that fits this perfectly. He has an overly pronounced spinalis evenly on both sides of his spine. The muscle is as hard as a brick and he’s considerably reactive even to light palpation. When we saddle/girth him he reaches back with his head and touches us, though he has such an incredibly sweet disposition and doesn’t try and bite. We do not have whatever saddle he had at his previous owner’s, but in every saddle he’s been ridden in here it slides back considerably.  He’s not my horse, but I can see he’s in pain, and I’d like to recommend the owner that they have him checked out. What course of action would you recommend (be it chiro, massage, etc?) I know his owners wallet is not unlimited, so I’d want to recommend something that would help the most rather than send them on a wild goose chase to find the solution…]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi there! I know I’m a bit late to this discussion, but there is a horse that recently arrived at my barn that fits this perfectly. He has an overly pronounced spinalis evenly on both sides of his spine. The muscle is as hard as a brick and he’s considerably reactive even to light palpation. When we saddle/girth him he reaches back with his head and touches us, though he has such an incredibly sweet disposition and doesn’t try and bite. We do not have whatever saddle he had at his previous owner’s, but in every saddle he’s been ridden in here it slides back considerably.  He’s not my horse, but I can see he’s in pain, and I’d like to recommend the owner that they have him checked out. What course of action would you recommend (be it chiro, massage, etc?) I know his owners wallet is not unlimited, so I’d want to recommend something that would help the most rather than send them on a wild goose chase to find the solution…</p>
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		<title>
		By: Karen Roberts		</title>
		<link>https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-83335</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Karen Roberts]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2020 04:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehorsesback.com/?p=3366#comment-83335</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Fabulous article, so educational!!!! Thank you very much for writing it!!!!!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fabulous article, so educational!!!! Thank you very much for writing it!!!!!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jane @ THB		</title>
		<link>https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-82940</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jane @ THB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2020 03:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehorsesback.com/?p=3366#comment-82940</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-82939&quot;&gt;Betsey&lt;/a&gt;.

Hi Betsey, 

The comments tend to come in spurts, depending on the circulation of the articles. Many people have notifications switched on, so you may get responses :-) If you join the FB group, lots of people there are more than willing to discuss back and saddle issues, with many of them being very qualified to do so!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-82939">Betsey</a>.</p>
<p>Hi Betsey, </p>
<p>The comments tend to come in spurts, depending on the circulation of the articles. Many people have notifications switched on, so you may get responses 🙂 If you join the FB group, lots of people there are more than willing to discuss back and saddle issues, with many of them being very qualified to do so!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Betsey		</title>
		<link>https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-82939</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Betsey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2020 01:44:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehorsesback.com/?p=3366#comment-82939</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m working on this problem with my horse, and won&#039;t leave a question now since prior comments are over a year old. But will fill in my info. so as to receive notification of new posts.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m working on this problem with my horse, and won&#8217;t leave a question now since prior comments are over a year old. But will fill in my info. so as to receive notification of new posts.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Don_Wada		</title>
		<link>https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-81217</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don_Wada]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Mar 2019 14:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehorsesback.com/?p=3366#comment-81217</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-81180&quot;&gt;lolly-dolly&lt;/a&gt;.

Hi Lolly,

Sounds like a great dissertation! So would you find thermographic evidence useful at all then?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-81180">lolly-dolly</a>.</p>
<p>Hi Lolly,</p>
<p>Sounds like a great dissertation! So would you find thermographic evidence useful at all then?</p>
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		<title>
		By: lolly-dolly		</title>
		<link>https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-81180</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lolly-dolly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Mar 2019 22:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehorsesback.com/?p=3366#comment-81180</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-80643&quot;&gt;Ray Miller&lt;/a&gt;.

Hiya,
Sorry to gatecrash this Q&#038;A you guys have going, but I&#039;m in the middle of writing a dissertation on ill-fitting saddles and the relation to clinical manifestations of pain and back pathologies. I am using a Tekscan CONFORMat as apposed to the Pliance mat (our uni only has a Tekscan) but iv had to research papers from Hilary Clayton (she uses the pliance mat) so I can get object info on the various technologies available and there pros and cons etc. (I digress, but hang in there il get to the point) - The pliance mat I found to be superior over the Tekscan in only 1 way - it is not a whole unit like Tekscan is (picture the shape of a dressage saddle pad that&#039;s what Tekscan looks like). The pliance mat has a gap down the middle (longitudinally along the dorsal aspect of the thoracolumbar spine) and as such, this eliminates the likelihood of false recordings of focal areas of pressure that may arise (with the Tekscan design ie; no gap) as the rider mounts (irrespective of how lightly or evenly). The downwards force of the riders weight in the saddle can cause the mats without the spinal clearance the pliance has to displace the pressure mat and thus appear to impinge the spinous processes when infact the spine has clearece its just the mat being pulled down as the riders weight is added to the saddle. Additionally, (appologies in advance if you already know this) but in response to the comment &quot;research using a Pliance sensor mat and thermal imaging to assess saddle fit? They found that areas of pressure did not necessarily produce heat. More often pressure either side of the withers was cool, while pressure to the rear of the panels did create heat patterns. The results were inconsistent in this way&quot; The main reason for this (and this is a commonly known limitation of ALL pressure sensing devices) they only measure the pressure perpendicular to the surface - and although perpendicular pressure is the most accurate, and its possible that pressure at an angle may be recorded, though it will likely register at lower than the true value and as such is not reliable in terms of object evidence. lastly, both the size of and spatial distribution of the sensors in each different kind of mat effects the coverage of the measured area. if sensor coverage is insufficient, total force measurements will be erratic due to inconsistencies in the number of sensors activated and small focal areas of high pressure can be missed (or as you put appear to not show any heat, which could also be possibly due to a breakdown in communications with the central nervous system as a result of chronic focal pressure causing failed motor neuron signals from the spinal cord and damage to nerve endings etc) ……….but that&#039;s just my two pennies worth hahaha! anyway, hopefully some of that may be of interest to you guys and maybe even help......either way, I love this blog (cant believe iv only just found it) and fully support both your views and appreciate your passion.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-80643">Ray Miller</a>.</p>
<p>Hiya,<br />
Sorry to gatecrash this Q&amp;A you guys have going, but I&#8217;m in the middle of writing a dissertation on ill-fitting saddles and the relation to clinical manifestations of pain and back pathologies. I am using a Tekscan CONFORMat as apposed to the Pliance mat (our uni only has a Tekscan) but iv had to research papers from Hilary Clayton (she uses the pliance mat) so I can get object info on the various technologies available and there pros and cons etc. (I digress, but hang in there il get to the point) &#8211; The pliance mat I found to be superior over the Tekscan in only 1 way &#8211; it is not a whole unit like Tekscan is (picture the shape of a dressage saddle pad that&#8217;s what Tekscan looks like). The pliance mat has a gap down the middle (longitudinally along the dorsal aspect of the thoracolumbar spine) and as such, this eliminates the likelihood of false recordings of focal areas of pressure that may arise (with the Tekscan design ie; no gap) as the rider mounts (irrespective of how lightly or evenly). The downwards force of the riders weight in the saddle can cause the mats without the spinal clearance the pliance has to displace the pressure mat and thus appear to impinge the spinous processes when infact the spine has clearece its just the mat being pulled down as the riders weight is added to the saddle. Additionally, (appologies in advance if you already know this) but in response to the comment &#8220;research using a Pliance sensor mat and thermal imaging to assess saddle fit? They found that areas of pressure did not necessarily produce heat. More often pressure either side of the withers was cool, while pressure to the rear of the panels did create heat patterns. The results were inconsistent in this way&#8221; The main reason for this (and this is a commonly known limitation of ALL pressure sensing devices) they only measure the pressure perpendicular to the surface &#8211; and although perpendicular pressure is the most accurate, and its possible that pressure at an angle may be recorded, though it will likely register at lower than the true value and as such is not reliable in terms of object evidence. lastly, both the size of and spatial distribution of the sensors in each different kind of mat effects the coverage of the measured area. if sensor coverage is insufficient, total force measurements will be erratic due to inconsistencies in the number of sensors activated and small focal areas of high pressure can be missed (or as you put appear to not show any heat, which could also be possibly due to a breakdown in communications with the central nervous system as a result of chronic focal pressure causing failed motor neuron signals from the spinal cord and damage to nerve endings etc) ……….but that&#8217;s just my two pennies worth hahaha! anyway, hopefully some of that may be of interest to you guys and maybe even help&#8230;&#8230;either way, I love this blog (cant believe iv only just found it) and fully support both your views and appreciate your passion.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ray Miller		</title>
		<link>https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-80643</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ray Miller]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2019 00:05:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehorsesback.com/?p=3366#comment-80643</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-65671&quot;&gt;Jane @ THB&lt;/a&gt;.

I feel this is due to the amount of pressure being applied. Most tissue damage I found due to pressure is above 3mm.  Starting there the heat also seem to increase. Some time we found that the pressure was not constant allowing the skin to cool.  Also one needs to take in shearing movement of both the saddle and pad.  Shearing forces can be seen ever with out  a pressure map.  It is notice at the back of the saddle where the hair is, shall we say sheared or rub off.  You can also have this same force at work along the side of the horse where your fenders are on western saddle or your leathers on English type saddles.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-65671">Jane @ THB</a>.</p>
<p>I feel this is due to the amount of pressure being applied. Most tissue damage I found due to pressure is above 3mm.  Starting there the heat also seem to increase. Some time we found that the pressure was not constant allowing the skin to cool.  Also one needs to take in shearing movement of both the saddle and pad.  Shearing forces can be seen ever with out  a pressure map.  It is notice at the back of the saddle where the hair is, shall we say sheared or rub off.  You can also have this same force at work along the side of the horse where your fenders are on western saddle or your leathers on English type saddles.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jane @ THB		</title>
		<link>https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-80642</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jane @ THB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2019 23:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehorsesback.com/?p=3366#comment-80642</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-80629&quot;&gt;Emma&lt;/a&gt;.

Hi! It&#039;s certainly multi-factorial and severe laminitis would have created considerable tension through the forequarters and back through pain-related tension and postural change. This horse will need rehab work to mobilise the back again and redevelop muscle. Laminiitis really does affect the whole body, as I&#039;m sure you know!

It&#039;s also worth mentioning, although it may not be the case here, that muscle atrophy due to saddle fit doesn&#039;t correct simply because a saddle is taken away or the horse is out of work - rehabilitative work is always needed to rebuild the back muscle.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://thehorsesback.com/spinalis-muscle/#comment-80629">Emma</a>.</p>
<p>Hi! It&#8217;s certainly multi-factorial and severe laminitis would have created considerable tension through the forequarters and back through pain-related tension and postural change. This horse will need rehab work to mobilise the back again and redevelop muscle. Laminiitis really does affect the whole body, as I&#8217;m sure you know!</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also worth mentioning, although it may not be the case here, that muscle atrophy due to saddle fit doesn&#8217;t correct simply because a saddle is taken away or the horse is out of work &#8211; rehabilitative work is always needed to rebuild the back muscle.</p>
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